Shared conversation
Identifying the Kings of the North and South
Which modern nations represent the Kings of the North and South?
Who is the king of the north
AdventAI
The king of the north is the power that occupies the territory originally held by Lysimachus, specifically the region of Thrace and Bithynia with its center at Constantinople, which in the time of the end is the Turkish power.
Identification of the King of the North
Historical Origins: Following the death of Alexander the Great, his empire was divided toward the four winds of heaven among his four leading generals Daniel 11:4.
Geographical Rule: The kingdom of the north was established by Lysimachus, who held Thrace and Asia Minor, situated to the north of Palestine.
Territorial Principle: A power is identified as the king of the north based on the territory it occupies; whoever holds the land originally belonging to the northern division remains the king of the north throughout history.
Succession of Powers: While the Seleucid dynasty (Syria) initially became the dominant northern power after defeating Lysimachus, the title eventually transferred to Rome and later to the Ottoman Empire as they occupied that same geographical region.
The King of the North in the Time of the End
Turkey's Role: Since 1453 A.D., the Turkish government has ruled the territory centered at Constantinople, which is the heart of the original northern division.
Modern Fulfillment: In the closing verses of Daniel 11 the king of the north refers to Turkey, which came against the French power like a whirlwind in 1798.
Prophetic Events: The Crimean War served as a fulfillment of tidings from the north and east troubling this power, as Russia warred against the Ottoman Empire.
Final Destination: The prophecy concludes with this power planting the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain before coming to his end with none to help him Daniel 11:45.
Spiritual Significance
The Stand of Michael: The final collapse of the king of the north is a critical signal that Michael shall stand up, leading to a time of trouble and the ultimate deliverance of God's people Daniel 12:1.
A Call to Watchfulness: Understanding these movements in history allows the wise to recognize that the end of all things is near and that the everlasting kingdom of God is soon to be established Daniel 12:10.
The Lord is the King of all the earth and ensures that His word is fulfilled exactly as spoken Psalms 47:7.
Sources · 18
- EQ 11.1The Eastern Question
- MON 30.2The Marshaling of the Nations
- GEP 200The Great Empires of Prophecy, from Babylon to the Fall of Rome
- DAR1909 249.2Daniel and The Revelation
- GEP 203.2The Great Empires of Prophecy, from Babylon to the Fall of Rome
- BEST June 8, 1896, page 171.10The Bible Echo, vol. 11
- PTUK April 1, 1897, page 194.2The Present Truth, vol. 13
- GEP 243.2The Great Empires of Prophecy, from Babylon to the Fall of Rome
- PTUK April 1, 1897, page 195.3The Present Truth, vol. 13
- DAR1909 304.2Daniel and The Revelation
- DAR1909 247Daniel and The Revelation
- PTUK March 12, 1896, page 165.8The Present Truth, vol. 12
- ARSH October 2, 1900, page 632.11The Advent Review and Sabbath Herald, vol. 77
- GNT 98.1The Great Nations of To-day
- ARSH May 31, 1898, page 349.1The Advent Review and Sabbath Herald, vol. 75
- WIEX 1.1Without Excuse
- TMR 32.2The Three Messages of Revelation 14:6-12
- ESH 20.4Evidences from Scripture and History of the Second Coming of Christ About the Year A. D. 1843, and of His Personal Reign of 1000 Years
So simple answer please. Who is the king of the north?
AdventAI
The king of the north is the power that occupies the territory originally held by Lysimachus, which is currently the Turkish Empire centered at Constantinople.
The Identity of the King of the North
Geographical Definition: The king of the north is defined by the territory of Thrace and Bithynia, which was the northern division of Alexander the Great's empire.
A Continuous Title: From the beginning to the end of the prophecy, whatever power occupies that specific northern territory is recognized as the king of the north.
Current Application: Because the Turkish power has held this identical territory since 1453 A.D., it is the king of the north mentioned in the final verses of Daniel 11.
Historical Succession: Historically, this role began with Lysimachus, was later held by the Seleucid dynasty of Syria, and eventually passed to the Ottoman Empire.
The Time of the End: At the time of the end, which began in 1798, the king of the north (Turkey) collided with the king of the south (Egypt) and the French power under Napoleon.
Prophetic Milestones
The Crimean War: The prophecy concerning tidings out of the north and east troubling the king was fulfilled during the Crimean War when Russia attacked the Ottoman Empire.
The Final Move: The king of the north will eventually move his seat of government to Jerusalem, planting his tabernacles between the seas in the glorious holy mountain.
The End of the Power: Following this move, the Turkish power will come to its end with none to help him, signaling the close of human history.
The Standing Up of Michael: The fall of this power is the immediate signal for Michael to stand up, marking the beginning of the great time of trouble and the deliverance of the righteous Daniel 12:1.
God, who is the King of all the earth, has provided these waymarks so that his people may not be in darkness regarding the nearness of the end Psalms 47:7.
Sources · 14
- EQ 11.1The Eastern Question
- BEST June 8, 1896, page 171.10The Bible Echo, vol. 11
- MON 30.2The Marshaling of the Nations
- DAR1909 249.2Daniel and The Revelation
- DAR1909 302.2Daniel and The Revelation
- SBBS 193.1Source Book for Bible Students
- PTUK April 1, 1897, page 194.2The Present Truth, vol. 13
- DAR1909 304.2Daniel and The Revelation
- APEC 98.1An Address to the Public, and Especially the Clergy
- PTUK March 12, 1896, page 165.8The Present Truth, vol. 12
- DAR1909 319.2Daniel and The Revelation
- ARSH October 2, 1900, page 632.11The Advent Review and Sabbath Herald, vol. 77
- WIEX 1.1Without Excuse
- ARSH May 31, 1898, page 349.1The Advent Review and Sabbath Herald, vol. 75
Who is the king of the south?
AdventAI
The king of the south is definitively identified as the power that occupies the territory of Egypt.
The Historical Identity of the King of the South
Post-Alexandrian Division: After the death of Alexander the Great, his empire was divided among his four generals toward the four winds of heaven, with the southern division being located in Egypt Daniel 11:4.
General Ptolemy: The original king of the south was Ptolemy Soter, who took possession of Egypt and its neighboring countries.
A Geographic Standard: In biblical prophecy, the title is determined by the territory; therefore, whatever power occupies the land of Egypt is the king of the south.
Historical Strength: During the reign of the early Ptolemies, the king of the south was strong, annexing territories such as Cyprus, Phoenicia, and Cyrene Daniel 11:5.
The King of the South in History and Prophecy
The Conflict with the North: For long ages, the kings of the south (the Ptolemies) and the kings of the north (the Seleucids) engaged in various wars and political marriages, such as the union between Berenice, daughter of the king of the south, and Antiochus Theos Daniel 11:6.
Roman Intervention: Eventually, the power of Rome entered the scene, exalting itself to establish the vision and eventually making Egypt a Roman province Daniel 11:14.
The Prince of the Covenant: It was during the Roman supremacy over these territories that the "prince of the covenant," Jesus Christ, was broken or crucified Daniel 11:22.
The King of the South at the Time of the End
The 1798 Milestone: At the commencement of the "time of the end" in 1798, the king of the south (Egypt) "pushed at" the atheistical government of France under Napoleon Bonaparte Daniel 11:40.
The Mameluke Resistance: This prophetic "push" was fulfilled when the Mamelukes in Egypt resisted the French invasion during Napoleon's Egyptian campaign.
A Continuing Role: Egypt remains the king of the south by common agreement, as it occupies the identical territory designated in the original division of the Grecian empire.
Spiritual and Final Lessons
Deliverance from Bondage: Historically, Egypt represents the "house of bondage" from which God delivered Israel with a mighty hand Exodus 20:2.
The Warning of Idolatry: While in Egypt, Israel was warned against adopting the idols and abominations of that land, a lesson that remains vital for God's people today Ezekiel 20:7-8Joshua 24:14.
Signs of the End: The movements of the king of the south at the time of the end serve as waymarks to inform the wise that the end is near and that Michael is soon to stand up for His people Daniel 12:1.
May you find peace and clarity in studying these truths, for the words of the Lord are pure and sure Psalms 12:6.
Sources · 23
- MON 30.2The Marshaling of the Nations
- DAR1909 249.1Daniel and The Revelation
- DAR1909 302.2Daniel and The Revelation
- DAR1909 249.2Daniel and The Revelation
- SDP 188.2The Story of Daniel the Prophet
- EQ 11.1The Eastern Question
- BEST June 8, 1896, page 171.10The Bible Echo, vol. 11
- SDP 193.1The Story of Daniel the Prophet
- GEP 208.1The Great Empires of Prophecy, from Babylon to the Fall of Rome
- MWV2 88.1Miller’s Works, vol. 2. Evidence from Scripture and History of the Second Coming of Christ about the Year
- ESH 20.3Evidences from Scripture and History of the Second Coming of Christ About the Year A. D. 1843, and of His Personal Reign of 1000 Years
- APEC 89.4An Address to the Public, and Especially the Clergy
- APEC 98.1An Address to the Public, and Especially the Clergy
- DAR1909 304.1Daniel and The Revelation
- APEC 97.2An Address to the Public, and Especially the Clergy
- DAR 275.1Daniel and The Revelation
- DAR 273.2Daniel and The Revelation
- RH April 23, 1901, Art. A, par. 11The Review and Herald
- ARSH February 5, 1901, page 88.23The Advent Review and Sabbath Herald, vol. 78
- BHOTV2 24.1Bible History Old Testament Vol. 2
- BDOC 51.19Revelation 11 and Daniel 12
- BDOC 51.21Revelation 11 and Daniel 12
- SDP 179.3The Story of Daniel the Prophet
So Armageddon is a conflict between Turkey and Jerusalem and Egypt?
AdventAI
Armageddon is the final worldwide conflict between the forces of good and evil, where the collapse of the Turkish power serves as a primary signal for the nations to gather for the great day of God Almighty. While the political drying up of the Ottoman power prepares the way for the nations to rally to the Holy Land, the battle itself is far more than a local military struggle; it is the last grand rally of the whole world under the leadership of satanic agencies.
The Role of the Eastern Question
The Consumption of Turkey: The drying up of the symbolic river Euphrates represents the consumption of the Ottoman power, which currently holds possession of Palestine and the sacred sepulchers.
The Bone of Contention: Jerusalem is the central focus because the nations have fixed their covetous eyes on its possession, yet Turkey is maintained by the European powers to preserve the "balance of power".
Preparing the Way: When the Christian nations withdraw their support, the Turkish government will fall, and the way will be opened for the "kings of the East"—the nationalities and powers lying east of Palestine—to rush to the field of conquest.
Gathering of the Millions: The millions of Mohammedans from Persia, Afghanistan, Toorkistan, and India will be drawn to this field in behalf of their religion.
The Spiritual Nature of the Conflict
Two Opposing Parties: Ultimately, there are only two parties in this world: those who are loyal to God and those who stand under the banner of the prince of darkness.
Satanic Deception: "Spirits of devils" working miracles will go forth from the dragon, the beast, and the false prophet to gather the kings of the earth and the whole world to this battle.
The Armies of Heaven: This battle is fought when the Saviour comes, as He on whose vesture is written "King of kings and Lord of lords" leads the armies of heaven on white horses.
Providence Intervenes: While the nations are eager for conflict, they are currently held in check by four mighty angels until the servants of God are sealed.
The Location and Scale
The Valley of Decision: The battle is generally expected to take place in the Valley of Jehoshaphat or the plain of Esdraelon, also known as the plain of Megiddo.
A Worldwide Struggle: Though centered in the East, the conflict involves the "kings of the earth and of the whole world," including all nations that have turned from the truth.
The Final Harvest: This scene is described as the great winepress of God’s wrath, where the wickedness of the nations has reached its full measure Joel 3:13.
The Outcome for God's People
The Standing Up of Michael: When the king of the north (Turkey) comes to his end, Michael will stand up, marking a time of trouble such as never was Daniel 12:1.
Final Deliverance: In the midst of this global crash of nations, God will be a shelter and strength for His people, delivering every one found written in the book Daniel 12:1.
The End of Evil: The battle results in the total extinction of Satan and his host, as the earth is purified by the glory of God and the brightness of Christ's coming.
Be encouraged, for though the conflict is fierce, the Lamb shall overcome all earthly powers, and His faithful followers will enter the city of God Revelation 17:14.
Sources · 16
- DAR1909 692.6Daniel and The Revelation
- GNT 101.2The Great Nations of To-day
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- GCB/GCDB 1893, page 89.4General Conference Daily Bulletin, vol. 5
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